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  • "EricGoedkoop" started this thread

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1

Tuesday, August 11th 2009, 2:48am

Scratchbuilt 1912 Hanriot-Pagny Monoplane; 1:33

Please excuse my posting in English.

My current project is the 1912 Hanriot-Pagny, as flown by Andre Frey in the 1912 Gordon-Bennet race:



I've been working on this for almost three months now. I started with some of the smaller bits:



Wheels are all card with silk thread spokes:



The engine is a Gnome Lambda modified from Richard Schulten's Oberursel. It's printed on Red River silver paper:



The propellor is Leif Ohlsson's design, made from 18 layers of laminated card:

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "EricGoedkoop" (Aug 11th 2009, 2:49am)


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Tuesday, August 11th 2009, 2:56am

Next I built the wings:



The peculiar airfoil - similar to Nieuport monoplanes of the same period - presented some difficulties, especially for forming the wingtip. It took me eight or nine test-builds to get the right shape, but eventually it all worked out:







The wings have complete internal structure - eleven ribs and five spars in each. In addition to creating the correct shape, this allows for a realistic effect of translucence:


  • "EricGoedkoop" started this thread

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Tuesday, August 11th 2009, 2:59am

The tailfeathers were straightforward:





Control horns are made from two layers of card laminated with white glue, then drilled for the line. Rigging is silk filament thread, the same as used for the wheels:


  • "EricGoedkoop" started this thread

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Tuesday, August 11th 2009, 3:05am

Here's the skeleton of the rear fuselage and the interior of the cockpit:



Seat, control column, rudder bar and instrument panel:





Completed cockpit:



And finally the complete interior of the fuselage. The two sections are not yet joined together:



The next step will be to skin the fuselage, then build the undercarriage.

All comments, questions and criticisms are welcome!

Leif Ohlsson

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Tuesday, August 11th 2009, 9:52am

Hello Eric,

and glad to see your Hanriot-Pagny over here as well! It is indeed exquisite, and I have some questions of general interest. First, however, shouldn't we mention that further information could be gleaned from a number of other threads & sources?:

Your original presentation, with a bit more detailed discussion, can be read at Paper Modelers.com: The Last Month's Work or Why It Takes Me Forever To Build A Model.

Richard Shulten's original Oberursel engine (plus several other engines) can be had from his own site.

The propeller design was developed in this thread at Paper Modelers.com: Laminated prop in paper. The final outcome of that work can be downloaded from their aviation download section in several scales: 1/16, 1/33, 1/48, and even 1/72.

Your wing design is beautiful, and the translucent effect is very effective. It would be interesting to know a bit more about paper thicknesses involved to get that effect, also about the thickness of ribs & spars.

I admire the way you managed the wingtips (after so many testbuilds, I'm tipping my hat here!). How did you really go about achieving that - are the wingtips built as separate parts, or are they part of the big wing covering piece? How does one arrive at the exact shape, and/or how did you shape them? And no additional cuts necessary, I take it? Is there a possibility to see what they look like unfolded?

The wings look a little greenish in one photo, but you only used that one layer, right? And how about the main spar which can be spotted in the root rib - is that a real wood spar we see there, or is it just drawn on the rib?

For the first time, I now realize that the aft fuselage is not finished - what we see is just the interior, which is supposed to shine through the outer skinning layer. That is why the pattern is so "hard". How ingenious - you can in fact add/draw details on the outer skin, and still get a true translucent effect of wires and structural members from the inside layer without having to build the whole structure! This is a first, isn't it? And your own invention I take it.

I must confess that I did not understand this when I first read about it at Paper Modelers.com. Perhaps others have missed the importance of this new method as well. The outcome of the final skinning, and the resulting translucent effect, will be most interesting to see!

I know you work almost exclusively with the natural structure of paper, and mostly make hand-drawn patterns. This makes your models works of art, one of a kind in effect. They are clearly models, a representation of the typical of the fullsize, yet not necessarily attempting to replicate the original exact look, as much as the overall impression, or perhaps one could even say the idea, of their full-size counterparts.

It's not your thing, but how do you look upon efforts to create the same kind of effects in graphic programmes?

The reason I ask is that the modeling of wires & structural members seen through varnished fabric is a particularly interesting problem. I always thought that is what really makes these vintage aircraft so beautiful (and sometimes also very ugly, when the fabric is all wrinkled, dirty and not translucent at all).

Leif
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

This post has been edited 15 times, last edit by "Leif Ohlsson" (Aug 11th 2009, 6:40pm)


  • "EricGoedkoop" started this thread

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6

Wednesday, August 12th 2009, 4:10am

Hello, Leif!

Thanks for your post. You're quite right, of course, to point out my other thread on papermodelers.com and the links to Richard's engines and your own propellors. I'll try to answer all your questions the best I can, and I'm grateful for the opportunity for some discussion.

Quoted

Your wing design is beautiful, and the translucent effect is very effective. It would be interesting to know a bit more about paper thicknesses involved to get that effect, also about the thickness of ribs & spars.


Thank you. I was a bit intimidated by the airfoil, but I'm satisfied with the results. Translucence is, I feel, the key to a realistic model of a fabric-covered aeroplane and card is a medium uniquely suited to achieving the desired effect, providing you also adequately replicate the underlying structure. I've seen some truly remarkable trompe l'oeil techniques on plastic models, but the illusion of an opaque surface painted to look like a translucent one is only viable if point-of-view is limited. Only a truly translucent surface will look translucent from any angle.

The wing skins are "regular" cardstock, single thickness. I confess to not paying much attention to weights - I generally use what I can buy at the local craft or office supply store. It's probably 80lb; I estimate the thickness to be .008" / .2mm. The ribs are quadruple thickness, or 1" scale. Intermediate spars are the same, and the two main spars are eight layers or 2" scale.

Quoted

I admire the way you managed the wingtips (after so many testbuilds, I'm tipping my hat here!). How did you really go about achieving that - are the wingtips built as separate parts, or are they part of the big wing covering piece? How does one arrive at the exact shape, and/or how did you shape them? And no additional cuts necessary, I take it? Is there a possibility to see what they look like unfolded?


Thanks for that - they were a challenge to be sure! Here is the wing skin; it's one piece, but as you can see there are long cuts along the outermost rib to allow the tip shape. The black background is just to make it easier to see the shape, as the underside color is very pale and I try not to use any black outlines on light-colored parts:



Essentially, the upper surface of the wingtip is simply rotated away from the main surface by increasing degrees from about half-chord forward. It is common to see wing skins that have spanwise wedge-shaped cuts from the tip inward; we all know how this allows the tip to taper from full height down to an edge. This is really no different - imagine rotating each section of the tip away from the wing to close up those wedges. The obvious advantage to this method is that the cut is nicely hidden along the outermost rib. See a recent discussion we had here about this very topic.

The underside of this particular wing was especially troublesome due to the complex airfoil shape. You can see where it was necessary to relieve the bottom skin from both front and back, leaving only a very small section attached.

In the build sequence, the tips are formed first by gluing these cut edges together. This is done before any of the wing structure is added. As for how I arrived at the final shape - it was simply an educated guess followed by a LOT of trial-and-error!

Quoted

The wings look a little greenish in one photo, but you only used that one layer, right?

Quoted



Right. This is all designed in Photoshop; it's a printed part. The aeroplane (or my interpretation of it, anyway) is green on the upper surfaces and CDL on the bottom. More on that later.

Quoted

And how about the main spar which can be spotted in the root rib - is that a real wood spar we see there, or is it just drawn on the rib?


It's a "real" spar. It's card, eight layers thick as previously mentioned. I used up some pink cardstock that I will surely never use for anything else. Unfortunately, I didn't take any photos of the wings during construction. Here are the ribs and main front spar:



These parts all notch together. The bottom wing skin is glued to the ribs with the main spar in place, forming the curvature of the bottom surface. The remaining spars are just little rectangles glued in between the ribs. With all the structure in place the top is brought around, the trailing edge glued together and the tip closes up like a clam.

I'm sure all this is far from clear by my explanation. I'll send you the parts, if you'd like to build the wing and see how it works.

Quoted

For the first time, I now realize that the aft fuselage is not finished - what we see is just the interior, which is supposed to shine through the outer skinning layer. That is why the pattern is so "hard". How ingenious - you can in fact add/draw details on the outer skin, and still get a true translucent effect of wires and structural members from the inside layer without having to build the whole structure! This is a first, isn't it? And your own invention I take it.


Exactly right. It's not a first for me - I've done it a bunch and it works great!

Quoted

The outcome of the final skinning, and the resulting translucent effect, will be most interesting to see!


It works best, naturally, with the lightest finish colors. Under the green I expect the effect will be extremely subtle.

Quoted

I know you work almost exclusively with the natural structure of paper, and mostly make hand-drawn patterns. This makes your models works of art, one of a kind in effect. They are clearly models, a representation of the typical of the fullsize, yet not necessarily attempting to replicate the original exact look, as much as the overall impression, or perhaps one could even say the idea, of their full-size counterparts.


I strive for accuracy, but am limited by a general scarcity of information on the subjects I choose. Beyond that, I want my models to represent the original as closely as possible within the confines of the medium and my personal aesthetic. I like card models, and I accept the limitations of card as a modeling medium as well as its possibilities. I also believe that there's such a thing as over-detailing and that it's simply not necessary to replicate every last bit and bobble. If I can't see it in a photograph of the original taken from a reasonable angle and distance, I don't need to model it.

Quoted

It's not your thing, but how do you look upon efforts to create the same kind of effects in graphic programmes?


As I mentioned, all of this is designed in PhotoShop. I don't use any modeling software; everything is drawn from three-views, photographs and other references. I create the parts digitally for precision and repeatability, but I also use surface texturing to enhance the effect of seeing underlying texture through the fabric. If you look closely at the wing skin above, you'll notice that the ribs are highlighted and the spaces between them slightly shaded. If the finished wing is backlit, you'll see the structure show through and it will be dark compared to the rest of the wing. If the finished part is lit from the front, however, the ribs show lighter indicating the sagging fabric between them. I feel the best effect is achieved by combining an accurate interior structure (where possible), translucent skin and skillful coloring.

Quoted

The reason I ask is that the modeling of wires & structural members seen through varnished fabric is a particularly interesting problem.


It's actually the thing that has always most appealed to me about modeling in card. I know you've been working on this issue from a graphic perspective and there's certainly merit there, but to me the great advantage of card modeling is that you don't have to represent the appearance of translucent fabric because cardstock is already translucent.

Thanks again for your thoughtful post. I'm glad for the opportunity to talk about these things in detail.

Eric

Oliver Weiß

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Wednesday, August 12th 2009, 2:59pm

Eric, have you thought about offering kits? Your work is truly spectacular and inspires me to try my hand on an airplane or two...


Cheers,

Oliver
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  • "EricGoedkoop" started this thread

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Thursday, August 13th 2009, 1:32am

Thanks, Oliver!

I've been tempted to make kits of my models, but I find I don't really have the patience or inclination to lay out all the parts sheets and write up instructions. Also, I'm not sure the subjects I'm interested in would have very wide appeal. If they did, there would probably already be kits of them!

I do put a LOT of time and effort into these designs and it's a shame, in a way, to not "follow through" with the relatively easy task of compiling all the pieces already drawn, tested and built into a kit. On the other hand, it takes me so long to finish a model that by the time I reach the end, I'm usually more than ready for something new. Maybe I need a collaborator . . . . . . .

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Thursday, August 20th 2009, 4:04am

A little progress:







Unfortunately - but not altogether surprisingly - the green color of the fuselage is just dark enough to prevent the structure printed on the interior box to show through. It's barely, faintly visible in real life under certain lighting conditions, but doesn't photograph at all. Realistically subtle, we'll say.

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Saturday, August 22nd 2009, 2:56am

Got the forward deck and cowl done:



The engine fit, so that was a relief. Here's the cockpit side, showing the coaming:



I wanted to anchor the rudder and elevator control lines in the fuselage before I skinned the bottom, and as I had already threaded the topside elevator cables through the tailplanes I went ahead and attached them:



Here's the bottom:



Not bad for a day's work!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "EricGoedkoop" (Aug 22nd 2009, 2:57am)


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Saturday, August 22nd 2009, 4:05am

Wow (as usual!) Eric. This is really the most beautiful representation of a Hanriot that I have seen. I always admire your technique of letting the ribs show through the skins on the wings. Gotta try that if I ever get the nerve.

I'll echo the comment about the wing tips also. These are always an issue and yours are the cleanest perhaps, that I have seen.

I don't know that I'm as concerned about any kits as for seeing your work. It's a problem I wrestle with. I'm personally just thrilled to see you show your skills in the modeling without concern for hte commercial thing. Just keep on keeping on.


Carl

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Saturday, August 22nd 2009, 4:52am

Thanks, Carl.

And believe me - the commercial thing is not an issue. I already have a job, you know?

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Saturday, August 29th 2009, 1:40am

The upper pylon and related hardware:





And one undercarriage skid:



More to come!

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Saturday, August 29th 2009, 7:00pm

The wheels and both skids, just to see what it'll look like:





And here I've added the bungees to the skids:


theppf

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Saturday, August 29th 2009, 8:50pm

Outstanding wheels, Eric!!! =) =) =) And the whole project is very interesting. Looking forward to see the continueing! :)

Sergey

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "theppf" (Aug 29th 2009, 8:50pm)


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Saturday, September 12th 2009, 3:24am

Well, I managed to get the undercarriage together.





It's a bit of a mess, mostly because the whole thing collapsed as I was trying to rig it the first time. I didn't much feel like making new parts, so I cleaned them up and re-used them. There are lots of tears and too much glue, but it'll do.

I'm also pretty sure that the model is going to be too tail-heavy to sit properly. I don't think there's any way to add weight to the nose at this point, so I'm not sure what to do.

In any case, it's almost done!

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Saturday, September 12th 2009, 3:29am

Wilfried -

The model is 1:33 scale. It's about 9" / 23cm long. The wingspan will be almost 11" / 27cm.

Eric

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