Lieber Besucher, herzlich willkommen bei: Kartonbau.de - Alles rund um Papiermodelle, Kartonmodellbau und Bastelbogen. Falls dies Ihr erster Besuch auf dieser Seite ist, lesen Sie sich bitte die Hilfe durch. Dort wird Ihnen die Bedienung dieser Seite näher erläutert. Darüber hinaus sollten Sie sich registrieren, um alle Funktionen dieser Seite nutzen zu können. Benutzen Sie das Registrierungsformular, um sich zu registrieren oder informieren Sie sich ausführlich über den Registrierungsvorgang. Falls Sie sich bereits zu einem früheren Zeitpunkt registriert haben, können Sie sich hier anmelden.

  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

1

Dienstag, 19. August 2008, 18:10

Around the world 80 years ago on 20 horsepowers!

This very time of the year, but 80 years ago, a 22-year young man, Friedrich Karl von Koenig-Warthausen, successfully made a record flight from Berlin Tempelhof to the outskirts of Moscow. In a very light two-seater, the Klemm L-20, in which he had installed extra wing fuel tanks himself, he managed to stay aloft for 16 hours (and he could have stayed aloft for several hours longer).

In his pockets he had a fairly recently accomplished pilot's license, some hastily gathered food items, a Russian tourist parlour, and a pocket compass. Yet this was far from a "flying fool". Together with a few friends he had planned this flight for some time, and it was only the sudden news of very favourable winds that made the departure in the night between the 11th and 12th August 1928 a bit improvised and hasty.

Forced down just outside Moscow due to rainstorms, he nevertheless completed the distance the next day, and broke a record for single-pilot light planes.

Both he and his friends fully expected him to be back in Berlin a few days later at most. However, it was to be yet another full year and three months until he was to return - and then from the opposite direction, after having flown around the world's great landmasses, shipping his light aircraft over the oceans between them.

The same 20 horsepower, two-cylinder, Ferdinand Porsche-designed engine took him successfully all the way (although one cylinder almost shook off over the Persian Gulf; barely reaching the shore he made an emergency landing, unscrewed a couple of other bolts from the engine, cut them to proper length with a hacksaw blade, and took off again - one of many similar incidents).

The combined efforts of the first part of his extended flight to India (Karachi, in what today is Pakistan) awarded him the prestigious Hindenburg prize. The rest of the flight almost got him a second Hindenburg award, but for being a few days late to board the boat for Germany when leaving the USA.

This was indeed a "first" flight in many respects. Both in the category single pilot, and light planes. A similar flight was not repeated until a couple of years later, and then with a much sturdier aircraft.

What makes it interesting for present day pioneer aviation enthusiasts and model builders is that there exists a readily available reprint of Koenig-Warthausen's own book from the 1920s plus a very valuable collection of photos and technical descriptions of the aircraft. To top it all there is a 1:24 paper model of his aircraft. I'll introduce both of them shortly.

But first a few appetizers of Koenig-Warthausen, his Klemm L-20 "Kamerad", and his flight. The attached photos show:

1. Koenig-Warthausen in front of his Klemm L-20 "Kamerad" before taking off for Moscow.

2. Last-minute preparations before taking off.

3. The "Kamerad" in Teheran airport.

4. Karachi - start of second part of round-the-world flight

5. In the USA - changing the name of the aircraft to "Huenefeld" (his new German aviation hero)

6. Test-running the engine in Hollywood.

(Source in the next post!)
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • 01vorsp5weltflug.jpg
  • 02rusvorber.jpg
  • 07persflugplteheran.jpg
  • 12indidumdum.jpg
  • 25a-usataufegross.jpg
  • 25b-usain_hollywood.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 9 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (19. August 2008, 21:24)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

2

Dienstag, 19. August 2008, 18:27

The book

Very rarely does one come across a reference book that details both an exceptional aviation feature, is comprehensive enough, and then quite affordable to top it all off. Here's one such example:

http://www.angele-verlag.de/koenig/koenig.htm
Koenig der Lüfte (Angele Verlag)
Hans Angele
KOENIG DER LÜFTE (2000, J. Angele)
Der Weltflug 1928 des F.K. Freiherr von Koenig von und zu Warthausen
ISBN 3-9807403-0-7
240 Seiten, 210 x 270 mm
Gebunden
25,-- EURO [15 EURO Sonderpreis!]
Mit zahlreichen Fotos und Dokumenten

I can thoroughly recommend this book. It is written in German, and it contains both a reprint of large parts of Koenig-Warthausen's own two books from the 1920's, detailing his flight, all the extant part of his original flight log book (some pages missing since they were sent in as proof of his record flight), many, many original photos, and a very good description of the aircraft.

If you start by going to the website of the book, you will find large and generous excerpts of Koenig-Warthausen's own texts, plus a most generous selection of rare photos from the book.

I started by downloading most of this, but very soon I realized that the book itself was on sale at a reduced price of 15 Euros. After having contacted the present rights holder of the book (Johannes Angele, son of the author Hans Angele), he very generously and quickly sent me the book for this plus the same postage as a regular card model from Germany, all in all less than 20 Euros.

Thank you, Johannes Angele!

(Don't try to buy it through the website address, since it will quote you an exorbitant postage price; write directly to the publisher, verlag[at]angele.de)

Leif

Below the cover of the book, plus a few of the nice illustrated maps in it.
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • umschlag-v8.jpg
  • bord1berlin-baku.jpg
  • bord2baku-schiras.jpg
  • bord3schiras-karachi.jpg
  • bord4karachi-kalkutta.jpg
  • bord5kalkutta-singapore.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (19. August 2008, 21:25)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

3

Dienstag, 19. August 2008, 18:37

The aircraft, Klemm L20

Some of the best sources on the aircraft itself, the Klemm L20, originates with scale model builders. Here are the two best:

http://www.meineflieger.de/klemml15-l20.htm

http://www.grossmodell.homepage.t-online…ger/L15-L20.htm

Here you can view not only detailed photos from the very first L-20s built, but also original sketches by the designer Hanns Klemm, and three-views from that time.

Both these sites are goldmines of information, and I thoroughly recommend that you look through them and save whatever seems valuable to you (if you contemplate building the model of the L20).

I will attach just a few samples; go see the rest of it on your own.
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • L20-Klemet2.jpg
  • L20-Klemet1.jpg
  • L20fahrwerk.jpg
  • L20rohbaumitte.jpg
  • L20rumpfmittels..jpg
  • L20-dwg 3D3.gif
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 4 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (19. August 2008, 21:42)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

4

Dienstag, 19. August 2008, 18:50

The model

Finally, the existing model of the Klemm L20 "Kamerad" (Schreiber, 1:24 scale, designed by Alvar Hansen). I bought it this summer when visiting the Friedrichshafen Zeppelin museum, since I wished to treat myself to something during this holiday trip.

At the time I had no idea what aircraft this was, and it was only later on, at the hotel when reading the information contained in the kit, that I first learned about Koenig-Warthausen's remarkable 1928 flight.

I have always (like so many others) had a weak spot for Lindbergh's 1927 flight. But here was a flight, undertaken just a year later, which actually made made Lindbergh's flight fade somewhat into the background.

For more than a year this young man, pilot's license fresh in his pocket, and with what still would be described as an ultralight aircraft (although most such aircraft today would have twice, or four times the power), or possibly motorized glider, had flown across the whole world. This was a true adventure, from an era when such adventures were still possible, since air space was nowhere near as restricted then as it is today.

It was intriguing reading indeed, and it started me researching the aircraft itself more closely.

The result of that effort is a fairly disappointing evaluation of the existing card model. It is not to proper scale - 1:26 seems more likely - but even this is difficult to determine, since the model is quite disproportionate if you compare it to the original drawings and photos.

For one thing, the fuselage is quite a lot wider than it ought to be; the proportions of different parts of the fuselage in a sideview are wrong; scaling the wing to proper span results in the fuselage not fitting the three-views in other respects, etc.

The landing gear is fancifully modeled as having some kind of oleo struts, while the original was bungee-cord sprung inside the wingroot (see photos above; very ingenious design by Hanns Klemm). The wheels are too big. The wings are modeled as if they were detachable right next to the fuselage, while in fact they were detached a few decimeters outboard (see photos above). Also, the centre section of the original in effect had somewhat of a negative dihedral (anhedral), since the trailing edge was raised at the centre to coincide with the fuselage bottom (see designer's original sketch).

Now, don't get me wrong. It is a nice model, and perfectly buildable, as two examples from this site shows, and another (unfinished) example from the neighbouring forum. But it would benefit greatly from some redesigning. Hopefully, the information contained in the book and at the web sites given above will help the builder who wishes to do so.

Here are the two build threads from this forum:

Baubericht by Henry (2004):
[Fertig] Klemm L 20 d (Daimler L 20 Kamerad) 1:24 von Schreiber (Baubericht)
Klemm L 20 d (Daimler L 20 Kamerad) 1:24 von Schreiber (Gallery)

Model by Raimund Kelterer (2008):
Klemm L20d "Kamerad" 1:24 von Schreiber (Gallery)

When visiting Goteborg this summer, Raimund told me that his model has gone into the Austrian aviation museum at Graz, and that he is in contact with a group restoring a true L20. That will be something when photos from that effort finally emerge!

Meanwhile I attach the few photos I've found of the existing replica (not original) hanging at the Daimler-Benz museum. Photos of it are rare on the web; these are the only few sources I've found:

http://membres.lycos.fr/wings2/galphot/klemm_l15.jpg ("Klemm L15" should be "L20")
http://www.dmairfield.org/people/koenig_fk/index.htm
http://www.schreiber-bogen.com/catc4ef.html?ac=5&t=161

The last image is a comparison between a three-view, and my attempts to fit the Schreiber model into that. As you can see, it is out of scale and disproportionate in many ways - if the model parts were to be scaled up the necessary amount to fit the three-view better in some respects this would be even more apparent.

To get a better scale model, a more or less complete redesign of the fuselage, and some redesigning of the wings, would be necessary. It is a challenge - but it would also perhaps be a nice one, for anyone with enough competence who gets inspired by reading about Koenig-Warthausens flight.

Both the memory of that flight, and the aircraft making it possible, would seem to deserve the effort. Johannes Angele, the publisher, is in contact with Koenig-Warthausen's son, and he has already promised help with any questions that might arise in such an effort.

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • klemm_l15.jpg
  • klemmL202.jpg
  • klemmL203.jpg
  • 166F.jpg
  • 1671.jpg
  • Sideview-comparison.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 26 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (20. August 2008, 10:12)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

5

Dienstag, 19. August 2008, 20:53

Small quiz

If you pursue the web sources given above far enough, you will come across a very peculiar aerodynamic feature of the Klemm L-20, which I was completely unaware of until stumbling on to it. (I'm sure you will be as surprised as I was; I couldn't believe my eyes).

To me, that feature explained a couple of details visible both in the Schreiber model and in photos, which otherwise I could not make heads or tails of. These details are in themselves easily overlooked, until you see the effects of them (what they were for).

What I'm saying is, you won't be able to miss it, once you come across it.

What on earth could I be thinking of?

When you find out, show the rest of us the pictures you found, proving your point!

Leif
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (19. August 2008, 21:32)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

6

Mittwoch, 20. August 2008, 09:51

Yep, that's it Jörg. And in [url=http://www.mfc-burgschwalbe.de/61,0,klemm-l20,index,0.html]some photos of a model[/url] you can see it even more clearly.

This feature explains the funny rods and levers under the wing tips. The ailerons were actuated the normal way, with wires. When they moved, the lever under the wing transmitted the movement to the wing-tip axis.

Studying the paper model, I first thought this rod & levers were badly modeled shock absorbers. Not so. (Incidentally, Koenig-Warthausens Klemm had traditional shock absorbers under the wing tips; see photos above. They, too, should be added to the model.)

Well done, full points!

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • Model-11c3b394fb925d5467f8d731b91b318a_Klemm-4.jpg
  • Model-d09179f01095f9649a356a94589cd06c_Klemm-5.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 8 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (20. August 2008, 10:17)


  • »morewings« ist männlich

Beiträge: 757

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Juni 2004

  • Nachricht senden

7

Mittwoch, 20. August 2008, 12:15

Hallo Leif,
herzlichen Dank für deinen umfangreichen und spannenden Bericht.
Die Schreiber Klemm habe ich auch da liegen und werde das Modell auch (später) bauen.

Viele Grüße,
Roman
LG Roman

eatcrow2

Fortgeschrittener

  • »eatcrow2« ist männlich

Beiträge: 451

Registrierungsdatum: 3. Mai 2004

Beruf: Construction/Building..now retired

  • Nachricht senden

8

Mittwoch, 20. August 2008, 13:47

Hello Leif...

A wonderful interesting write up. I love stories like this.........


:O
Peter Crow
Santa Monica, Calif.
http://www.picturetrail.com/eatcrow2

  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

9

Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009, 11:53

A fresh photo of a 1:1 replica build!

While searching - again - for more material on the Klemm L20 I happened to come across this photo of a 1:1 replica build. It was exhibited just recently it seems at a Bodensee event.

Would anyone know more about this? Any chance to study more photos, drawings, etc?

Leif

Here is the source for the photo:
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showthread.php?t=95482&page=5
(There are also some beautiful 1/4 scale RC models of the KLemm L20 & 25 to study there).
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgendes Bild angehängt:
  • Messe3.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (3. Juni 2009, 11:59)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

10

Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009, 13:04

Museum photos

Just for the record, I have also found four additional photos of the replica hanging in the Daimler Benz museum.

Source: http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x307/…B02/MBMuseum04/

Note particularly the quite "edgy" trailing edge profile of the wing in the last photo.

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • MercedesKlemmFlugzeug_01.jpg
  • MercedesKlemmFlugzeug_02.jpg
  • MercedesKlemmFlugzeug_03.jpg
  • MercedesKlemmFlugzeug_04.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (3. Juni 2009, 13:07)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

11

Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009, 13:26

Correct profiles

From the RC forum mentioned above, I also gratefully got the correct rib profiles for the L20. They are:

Goettingen 527, 16,55% thickness, root section
Goettingen 528, 13,33% thickness, mid section
Goettingen 529, 11,40% thickness, tip section

I have drawn these profiles and attach an illustration plus a pdf for anyone interested. The pdf will open in a vector programme, so you can scale the profiles without loss. Also included in the pdf is the data for the profiles, so you can draw them yourself.

Source for the data:
http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads/coord_database.html#G

However, there is regrettably a fault in this source. For the mid profile, Goe 528, the image supplied is of the Goe 533 profile, not at all the same. The data for the Goe 528 on the other hand is correct.

To be on the safe side, I redrew all three profiles. The two others do check out with the images supplied. But I would recommend using the attached pdf, since these profiles have been reduced to the correct thickness percentage. And they are correct!

Note how the undercamber of the profile increases towards the tip.

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgendes Bild angehängt:
  • Profiles.jpg
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Datei angehängt:
  • Profiles L20.pdf (278,21 kB - 317 mal heruntergeladen - zuletzt: 14. November 2017, 00:29)
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (3. Juni 2009, 13:40)


Jan Hascher

Moderator - DerTranslator

  • »Jan Hascher« ist männlich

Beiträge: 6 030

Registrierungsdatum: 23. September 2004

Beruf: Filtrierer

  • Nachricht senden

12

Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009, 14:26

Nice research, Life!
The figure at the replica seems to be representing Elly Beinhorn. BTW: Her autobiography is much worth reading.

Cheers
Jan
Jeder, der einen Post mit "Ich habe zwar keine Ahnung, aber..." beginnt, möge bitte den Absenden-Button ignorieren.

  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

13

Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009, 15:13

Elly Beinhorn

Thanks, Jan - fantastically interesting!

Elly Beinhorn died just a year and a half ago, at the age of 100 (!), and she was the first women to fly around the world in 1931-32. Like Koenig-Warthausen she flew a Klemm, called - "Kamerad" (how's that for coincidence - Koenig Warthausen renamed his aircraft Hünefeld, but she kept the old name going!). And she had a breakdown in Persia, like K-W. And, like Koenig-Warthausen, she was awarded the Hindenburg prize for her achievement.

The only difference was that her Klemm was a L26a with an almost five times stronger engine than Koening-Warthausen's 20 hp. But she did start her flying career in a Klemm L20, similar to Koenig-Warthausen's aircraft. And she did it in the year he started his flight, 1928 - it seems they might have met at the Berlin-Staaken airfield, or perhaps Beinhorn was partly inspired to take up aviation by Koenig-Warthausen's initial 1928 flight to Moscow!!!

For a quick overview of Elly Beinhorn's flying career, see:
http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/beinhorn.html

And Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elly_Beinhorn

I attach a beautiful photo of her from that source - with the Klemm L26a as it looked in 1933?

Here's a good, quick, source, with an excerpt:
http://blog.flightstory.net/458/aviation…-beinhorn-died/

Zitat

German aviation pioneer Elly Beinhorn-Rosemeyer died last Wednesday, November 28, at age of 100 (!) in a senior citizen home near Munich, Germany. The 1907 born record holder was the first woman to circle the earth, in the early 1930s.

At age of 21, against the wishes of her parents she moved to Spandau in Berlin to learn to fly at Berlin-Staaken airport. Soon she did aerobatic displays at weekends in a small Klemm KL-20 plane. Long distance flying was her real passion. In 1931 she seized the opportunity to fly to Portuguese Guinea (now Guinea-Bissau) West Africa on a scientific expedition. On the return journey, engine failure resulted in a crash-landing in the Sahara. With the help of nomadic Tuareg tribesmen, she joined a camel caravan to Timbuktu.

Shortly later, on her flight around the world, her Klemm monoplane was developing mechanical problems near Bushire, Persia. There she met Moye Stephens, who helped her fix the problem. Stephens and travel-adventure writer Richard Halliburton were flying around the world in a Stearman C-3B biplane, The Flying Carpet. She accompanied them on part of their flight, including the trip to Mount Everest. She flew on to Bali and Australia. In the process, she became only the second woman to fly solo from Europe to Australia, after Amy Johnson. Having landed in Darwin, North Australia, she headed down to Sydney, arriving in March 1932. Her plane was dismantled and shipped to New Zealand, then Panama where it was reassembled. Elly resumed flying, following the western coast of South America. She was presented with a medal in Peru. An ill-advised trip across the Andes followed. The plane was dismantled once more in Brazil and shipped to Germany. Elly arrived in Berlin in June 1932.

Back in Germany she was awarded the Hindenburg Cup and several other monetary awards from the German aeronautical industry, which enabled her to continue her career.


Beside the photo of Elly Beinhorn below I have attached a map of her flight around the world, and below that a similar map of Koenig Warthausen's flight in 1928-29 for comparison.
Source: http://soloflights.org/list2_e.html

Data sheets are here:
Koenig Warthausen: http://soloflights.org/baron_data_e.html
Beinhorn: http://soloflights.org/elly_data_e.html It seems she really called her plane "Kamerad"!!!

Leif

PS. Note (edited in much later): The aircraft Elly Beinhorn is lifting by the tail is most likely her Me23b D-1674 from 1929. See this post.
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • Bundesarchiv_Bild_102-01227,_Elly_Beinhorn.jpg
  • elly.jpg
  • baron.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 13 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (4. Juni 2009, 23:01)


Jan Hascher

Moderator - DerTranslator

  • »Jan Hascher« ist männlich

Beiträge: 6 030

Registrierungsdatum: 23. September 2004

Beruf: Filtrierer

  • Nachricht senden

14

Mittwoch, 3. Juni 2009, 20:40

The book is called "Alleinflug" btw.
Jeder, der einen Post mit "Ich habe zwar keine Ahnung, aber..." beginnt, möge bitte den Absenden-Button ignorieren.

  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

15

Donnerstag, 4. Juni 2009, 12:50

Elly Beinhorn's Klemm L26a, 80hp Argus

I've found only one photo of Elly Beinhorn's Klemm L26a powered by a 80hp Argus engine. This is the aircraft, allegedly named "Kamerad", she used for the 1931-32 round-the-world flight.

As you can see the 80 hp Argus engine makes this quite another, more capable, aircraft than the very ultralight 20hp Porsche-powered Klemm L20 used by Koenig-Warthausen. And yet they were so structurally alike!

The second photo bears witness to this. It shows the landing gear of Elly Beinhorn's L26, and it is actually the same bungee-sprung type as the L20 landing gear. Later versions of the L25 & 26 all hade oleo shock absorbers in the main leg.

Incidentally, this is one of the things which is wrong with the Daimler-Benz replica, and the Schreiber model - they both have oleo-sprung landing gears. Compare for the detailed sketches earlier in this thread, and the Bodensee replica for the correct landing gear version.

Leif

Photo source: BR-Online

PS. Does anyone have a guess what the peculiar tubular structure running from the engine cowling and back towards the front cockpit is? Apparently there were similar tubes on the left side of the fuselage.

Answer (edited in later): They are oil cooler tubes ("Oelkühlschlange"), according to the original Klemm L25 specification list. This feature is peculiar to the Argus engine. See this post below.
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • BR-online-Publikation--218686-20081016151937.jpg
  • BR-online-Publikation--218685-20081016151855.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (9. Juni 2009, 09:35)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

16

Donnerstag, 4. Juni 2009, 14:04

Early Elly Beinhorn Klemm L20!

And then I struck gold...

By digging further in "404" dead links I finally struck a little bit of gold - the archive of the Süddeutsche Zeitung, SZ Photo. Here's the search results for "Elly Beinhorn".

From the photos obtained there, I have picked out all the early Klemm types I found flown by Elly Beinhorn. The first photo is a real gem, an L20 of exactly the same kind as flown by Koenig-Warthausen. Note the two-cylinder Porsche-designed Daimler-Benz 20hp engine.

The photos from this era unfortunately do not have a reliable time stamp, just "1907-2007". But this must be from 1928-29, and Berlin-Staaken. Possibly this L20 is the kind she used for her first long-distance flight to Rome.

An additional photo belongs in this section: It is dated 1931 and carries the caption: "Bildtitel: Elly Beinhorn-Rosemeyer, 1931. Bildtext: Elly Beinhorn-Rosemeyer (geb. 1907), deutsche Sportfliegerin, unternimmt in einem Klemm-Leichtflugzeug einen Flug nach Afrika."

I am in fact not at all sure that the photo depicts a Klemm aircraft at all. The fairing over the rear fuselage doesn't seem to fit a L20-25. And it is certainly not the round-the-world aircraft (the registration doesn't fit; see next post).

My best guess would be a Messerschmidt Me23B. It is known that Elly Beinhorn had a Me23B with the registration D-1674. This is clearly not it, but close... (Source: FlugzeugForum.de. See also this post.) This type may also be the one she put on aerobatic displays with.

The next two photos are undated but they seem to depict a L25 with a radial engine. The nose of the aircraft has a painting with "1930" over a map of Europe.

In the next photo it is shown in tropical surroundings. This should be from her first Africa flight to Guinea-Bissau, in 1931, prior to the round-the-world flight.

Note that the engine is a nine-cylinder small radial, and the prop is rotating counter-clockwise (as seen from the pilot), in distinction to the five-cylinder radial engine, and clockwise rotating prop in the aircraft two posts down...

The propeller would coincide with the one held by the puppet in the Bodensee exhibition a few posts above. That, too, is counter-clockwise.

Final addition: I couldn't resist the temptation to add a beautiful photo of the Klemm L25 with a Salmson nine-cylinder (most likely ca 45 hp) radial engine, counter-clockwise running prop. Source: Wikipedia. This has got to be the type Elly Beinhorn flew to Africa in 1931.

Leif

PS. I believe it is alright to publish these photos. The copyright note says: "Nutzungsrecht: Werbliche Verwendung und Handelsprodukte grundsätzlich nur nach Rücksprache und Freigabe durch Süddeutsche Zeitung Photo. Copyright: Süddeutsche Zeitung Photo / SZ Photo."
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • SZ00272098.jpg
  • SZ00030269.jpg
  • SZ00272079.jpg
  • SZ00272089.jpg
  • Klemm_L25A.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 22 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (5. Juni 2009, 14:52)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

17

Donnerstag, 4. Juni 2009, 14:21

Round-the-world 1931-32 Klemm L26a

The next type of Klemm I have found is the round-the-world L26a, powered by the 80hp Argus in-line engine.

The first (still undated) photo probably is taken at some tropical stop-over, judging from the tropical helmets of the policemen. Note the covered-up front cockpit section. This Klemm, unlike the L20, is flown from the back seat.

The next (also undated) probably is from the successful return to Berlin in 1932. Note the initial "D-2" in the registration, strongly suggesting that it is the same "D-2160" aircraft as in the previous photo.

Note also the weight figures. The L26 with 80hp Argus engine is a much heavier aircraft than the L20:

"Rüstgewicht" for the L20 is 265kg, and for the L26 460kg.
"Zuladung" for the L20 is 185kg, and for the L26 240kg (passengers, baggage, fuel).
"Fluggewicht" for the L20 is 450kg, and for the L26 700kg.

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • SZ00272087.jpg
  • SZ00272091.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 1 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (5. Juni 2009, 10:05)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

18

Donnerstag, 4. Juni 2009, 14:39

Other Klemm-like types flown by Elly Beinhorn

This post shows other Klemm-like types flewn by Elly Beinhorn.

First a widely circulated photo dated 1936. I am a bit hesistant about believing this date, since the Spanish newspaper clipping in the next photo seems to bear the date 1931.

The caption in Spanish says that the photo is from Berlin, and that Elly Beinhorn is preparing a flight to Africa. The clothing and the aircraft obviously are the same. Note that the engine is a five-cylinder radial, and the prop is rotating clockwise as seen from the pilot, in distinction to the nine-cylinder small radial with counter-clockwise rotating prop shown earlier (two posts above).

I believe these are stock photos from 1931 or earlier, and that the aircraft depicted is Elly Beinhorns Me23b, not the Klemm L25 she flew to Africa. For further corroboration, see this post below.

The last photo is dated 1933 and the caption says: "Bildtitel: Elly Beinhorn, 1933
Bildtext: Elly Beinhorn (geb. 1907), deutsche Pilotin und Schriftstellerin, nach ihrer Rückehr auf dem Flughafen Berlin-Tempelhof von einer wissenschaftlichen Expedition in Afrika, an der sie mit einem Sportflugzeug teilgenommen hatte."

I do not believe this to be correct. I read the registration in the last photo as D-1900. If that is correct, the aircraft is a Klemm L25E, which in the 1930 FAI international tourist plane contest for sport planes, held in Germany, was piloted by Oskar Dinort. (Source: Wikipedia: "1930 Challenge".)

If so, the aircraft most likely is the one being lent to Elly Beinhorn for her return after the 1931 Africa flight. During that flight, she crashed her original aircraft (Klemm L25 with a Salmson radial engine, depticted two posts above) in the African desert and had to walk to Timbuktu. Later she was provided with another aircraft in which she could make her triumphant return to Berlin. This could be the aircraft shown in the photo. If so, the year is 1931, and not 1933 as stated.

From the data sheet at the "Soloflights around the World" Beinhorn's second Africa flight in 1933 was not undertaken in a Klemm at all, but in a single-seat Heinkel. Photos of the Heinkel she used in 1933 shows a closed cabin, low-wing monoplane, darkly coloured at that, and not at all the aircraft shown here.

For reference, I attach three photos of that aircraft (undated but for the last one, where "1933" is written with a pen). According to Civil Aircraft Register - Germany, it is a Heinkel He 71b. Strangely enough, I have found no further information about this attractive type. (Other than a model of a plane with the same registration, but open cockpit, designated as He 71a...)

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • SZ00061949.jpg
  • fotosend-1441122883.jpg
  • SZ00061983.jpg
  • Elly\'s Heinkel-1.jpg
  • Elly\'s Heinkel-2.jpg
  • Elly\'s Heinkel-3.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 24 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (5. Juni 2009, 14:54)


  • »morewings« ist männlich

Beiträge: 757

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Juni 2004

  • Nachricht senden

19

Donnerstag, 4. Juni 2009, 17:24

Quellen

Hallo Leif,

kennst du "flightglobal". Diese Quelle hat mich schon viele Stunden gekostet.

Besonders interessant für die Zeit von 1918 - 1932.

z.b. hier: Elly Beinhorn
z.b. hier: Klemm L 20 - 25
und was dir sonst noch an Suchanfragen einfällt.

hier noch wunderbare Fotos aus der Doppeldeckerära:flugzeugforum.de
Beginnt z.b. mit der Junkers A 20

Viele Grüße
Roman
LG Roman

  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

20

Donnerstag, 4. Juni 2009, 20:42

Two new beautiful Klemm photos

Why didn't I think about Flight Magazine? Thanks, Roman! Even more thanks for the link to the thread at the FlugzeugForum.de. I registered, and plowed through the entire 33 pages of that thread - and it solved several mysteries!

I'll return to that in the next post. Now for some additional photos of the Klemm L25 & L26. Sources are links to single post at the FF forum. You've got to register to see the photos - and it is very much worth the small trouble!

The first photo is of a Klemm L25 Ia. Source: Peter Achs. The caption is as follows:

Zitat

"Die Kl L 25 Ia (D-1640) wurde 1929 auf den Grafen von Lippe zugelassen. Im gleichen Jahr versuchte er zwei Langstreckenflüge mit der Maschine.
27.09.1929 Start zum Langstreckenrekordflug Königsberg-Paris/Orly, Aufgabe wegen Schlechtwetter
24.10.1929 weiterer Versuch, doch auf der Etappe Königsberg-Warschau mußte wegen Nebels in Elbing zwischengelandet werden. Weitere Versuche sind nicht bekannt.
Motor: Salmson AD 9 (Infos freundlicherweise von Günter Frost)
Laut Luftfahrzeugrolle gehörte 1931 die Klemm immer noch dem Grafen, jedoch zwei Jahre später war ein H. Eisenmann in Böblingen der Eigner.


The next photo is of a Klemm L26 IIa with a Siemens Sh13 engine. Source: Peter Achs. The caption is:

Zitat

Eine Klemm Kl 26 II a der Luftfahrtvereinigung Münster mit dem Eigennamen "Wanderfalke". motorisiert mit einem Siemens Sh 13. Vor der Maschine steht der spätere Flugkapitän Helmut Weekamp.


Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • Klemm-L25Ia-D-1640.jpg
  • Klemm-KL26-IIa-SiemensSh13.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (5. Juni 2009, 10:26)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

21

Donnerstag, 4. Juni 2009, 21:57

Mystery solved - Me23b!

Now to the mystery solved: After reading through the entire thread at Flugzeugforum.de, I have learned that Elly Beinhorn was in possession of a Me23b as early as 1929!

This aircraft looks very much alike the Klemm L26, particularly when the Klemm has a Siemens 5-cylinder radial engine. First two photos of the Me23a & b. Source photo 1: Archiv H.-J.FISCHER. The caption runs:

Zitat

FW M 23, vorne die M23b, M23a hinten


And now for two enlightening photos of Elly Beinhorn with her D-1674 Me23b, together with Ernst Udet.

Source photo 2: Peter Achs. Caption:

Zitat

Elly Beinhorn lächelt in die Kamera vor ihrer M 23 in Königsberg. Am Seitenleitwerk kann man schemenhaft ihren Namen erkennen. Im Hintergrund steht die Flamingo von Udet.


Source photo 3: Peter Achs. Caption:

Zitat

Vielleicht gibt Udet gerade in diesem Augenblick seine Ratschläge an Elly Beinhorn. Links in der Mitte Elly Beinhorn, rechts in Fliegerkombi Ernst Udet, Königsberg September 1929


I now believe that all photos of Elly Beinhorn with a five-cylinder radial engine (as distinct from the nine-cylinder Salmson) is of her Me23b D-1674, including the one where she lifts the tail of a light aircraft marked on the fin with her name. This must have been the aircraft she supported herself with, by having aerobatic displays at Berlin-Staaken.

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • M23a+b.jpg
  • Elly\'s-M23b-1.jpg
  • Elly\'s-M23b-2.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 9 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (5. Juni 2009, 14:49)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

22

Donnerstag, 4. Juni 2009, 23:22

Klemm L25 being built

While I am at it, I would like to add the link to a very good history of the Klemm aircraft. It comes from the SOS Eisberg website, dedicated to documenting the building of a Klemm L25 (and other aircraft, not of interest to us in this thread).

The Klemm history is here, and I would like to offer a short, rather amusing, excerpt, telling the story of how Hans Klemm realized that he needed stronger engines than the 20 hp Porsche-designed Daimler-Benz engine:

Zitat

The birth of the L 25

Summer 1927 Hanns Klemm flew with the L 20 to Nice, France, upon request of Daimler-Benz, in order to talk with a Mercedes customer. On their way back, flying along the Rhone River towards the north, Klemm and his pilots noticed to their astonishment, that the bikers on the rural roads below them were faster than their L 20! The Mistral did not leave much of the L 20’s airspeed of 70 km/hr! After several transit stops they finally reached the airport of Zürich. He discussed what just happened with a French pilot named Thorez. Thorez felt for him, and informed him about a 40 Hp Salmson engine that was recently developed in France. Klemm immediately took the bait and ordered an engine. He had Lusser make the necessary changes in order to mount the engine to the L 20. After a short test period the design of the L 25 was born.


Go read the rest for yourself - it is worth the trouble! (But please note that most of the photos identifying L20s in fact are L25s...)

While you are at the site, check out also the building progress of the replica L25. There are photos and sketches to be found if you dig deep enough. Start here. I attach one of the photos as a teaser.

I, for one, am going back there to dig deeper...

Note particularly how the modern replica build seems to be made much sturdier (more reinforcements, etc) than the original, at least as judged by the original framework sketch attached.

Leif

PS. The SOS-Eisberg site is notes the Salmson engine as being 40hp. Other sources mention over 70hp. I'm prepared to go with a figure around 40-45hp. This additional source quotes a Salmson A9A on a Klemm L25a as having 45hp.

I attach all the L25 photos from the later source, including one of the engine, just because the D-EFTE is such a beautiful aircraft. Note that the L25 did not have moving wing tips, like the L20.

The last photo, showing D-EFTE airborn, is useful since it clearly shows how much (or little) was fabric-covered of the L25. All the non-transparent sections, including the entire fuselage (as distinct from the L20) and half the wings, were ply-covered.

From a paper-modeling point-of view it would be a most attractive challenge to repllicate this - thin sketching paper for fabric covering, doubled with ply-patterned, regular strength paper, printed on both sides? Such a laminate to be pre-made as a skin part, substituting for a regular wing covering part? Just an idea...
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • 48.1241085394.large.jpg
  • KL25D-001.jpg
  • Klemm_25A.jpg
  • a_Klemm_25_2.jpg
  • Klemm_25_-_Motor.jpg
  • Klemm-25.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 12 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (5. Juni 2009, 13:49)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

23

Freitag, 5. Juni 2009, 10:47

Klemm L25 type designations

Just for the record, here is a useful list explaining the different designations for the Klemm L25. (Source: SOS-Eisberg: History, already refered to above.]

Zitat

Numbering of the production aircraft was done by a letter indicating the sub-model, and a roman number for the engine used.

The letters:
A: basic model, similar to the prototype developed out of the L 20
B: changes made to the fuselage
C: once again small changes to the fuselage
D: same as C, but with a different undercarriage: low pressure tires and brakes were introduced
E: main differences: same wing but small differences in construction, and a different shape of the rudder and stabilo.
Additonal:
W: (Wasser) for floats
VL 25: 3-seater version
Alpha: different wing and steel-tube fuselage covered with linen.

For the numbers:
I: the French Salmson AD9 radial engine, 40 Hp
II: the German Siemens Sh 13 radial engine, 88 Hp
III: the British Blackburn Cirrus Minor
IV: the British Armstrong Siddely Genet radial engine
V: the German Argus As 8, 120 Hp
VI: the German BMW X radial engine, 60 Hp
VII:the German Hirth HM60 in-line engine, 72 Hp
VIIR: the German Hirth HM60R in-line engine, 80 Hp
X: the British Gipsy Major
XI: the Pobjoy Niagara radial engine
XIV: the German Siemens Sh 14 radial engine, 150 Hp.
Also there was a version with an improved Mercedes engine, which gave 24 Hp, but there was no number for this version
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Jan Hascher

Moderator - DerTranslator

  • »Jan Hascher« ist männlich

Beiträge: 6 030

Registrierungsdatum: 23. September 2004

Beruf: Filtrierer

  • Nachricht senden

24

Freitag, 5. Juni 2009, 11:02

Leif,
very interesting thread. I am with you, interupting as seldom as possible.

Cheers
Jan
Jeder, der einen Post mit "Ich habe zwar keine Ahnung, aber..." beginnt, möge bitte den Absenden-Button ignorieren.

  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

25

Freitag, 5. Juni 2009, 21:26

Technical data Klemm aircraft

Here's another useful item, a table showing all (or at least the most common) configurations of Klemm light aircraft. We need only concentrate on the first half of the table, the L20, L25s, and L26.

Please note that if Elly Beinhorn flew an aircraft with the designated "Rüstgewicht", etc, we could see in the photo earlier on, then it wasn't any of the Klemms in the table! The closest is a L25 with Hirth 80hp engine, but that has a full weight of 720 kg, as distinct from Elly's aircraft which had a full weight of 700 kg.

Note also that the Salmson 9-cylinder radial is rated at 40hp, as already discussed.

Source: The Klemm Flyers Forum, quoting Böblingen Museum publication no.22.
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgendes Bild angehängt:
  • Technische Daten Klemm 600.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 6 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (6. Juni 2009, 10:42)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

26

Freitag, 5. Juni 2009, 21:44

L25 VIIR drawing

Here's another tidbit - a drawing of a Klemm L25E VIIR, by H-J. Fischer. If we use the tables and designations we've learned from the previous posts, we quickly see that the VIIR means a Hirth HM60R in-line engine, 80hp.

Further, we notice that the E version means a new fin & tail shape, plus no longer spoked wheels, but modern low pressure wheels.

To begin with, we may note that all the figures given for flying weight (725 kg), etc, tally with the table in the previous post. This is a standard Klemm configuration, no doubt about that.

Is it the same type as Elly Beinhorn's? No - her type was a L26a V, and we have already seen that she still had spoked wheels, and a flying weight stated as 700 kg.

According to the tables the L26 would have a Argus As8 engine rated at 120 hp and a flying weight of 750 kg. However, the datasheet from "Solo flights around the world" states that the Argus As8 of her L26a V was rated at 70kW (ca 90 hp).

Did the Argus As8 come in several configurations? The ca 80-90 hp rating seems to be correct, since the flying weight is rated at 700 kg, lower than the 750 kg allowed for a 120 hp Argus, and lower even than the 720 kg allowed for the L25 VIIR in the drawing with its Hirth HM60R 80hp engine.

So her type, the L26a V, would be an early L26, designated so because of the new Argus engine, but still with the old spoked wheels and bungee-chord shock absorbers from the earlier L25s. The Argus engine would be of lower hp rating than any possible later standard 120 hp for the As8.

My conclusion so far is that the drawing of the L25 VIIIR is probably of a later model in time than Elly's L26, despite the later "26" designation of her type.

Source for the drawing: Zeichnung (c) by H.-J.FISCHER, FleugzeugForum.de

I attach the three pictures we've found of Elly's L26a V again for comparison. Study in particular the figures for weights painted on the fuselage, the area around the cowling front (air intakes), the bungee-sprung landing gear, and the large spoked (but covered) wheels.

Note also in the table above that the L26 had a length of 7.22 m, compared to the 7.00 m of all other L20s, and L25s. This would be important for anyone designing a model of Elly's aircraft. The extra 2 dm length would be in the cowling, I suspect.

Finally, note again the covered up front cockpit. I wonder whether she had an auxiliary fuel tank there?

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • Klemm-KL-25E-VIIR.jpg
  • SZ00272091.jpg
  • BR-online-Publikation--218686-20081016151937.jpg
  • SZ00272087.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 9 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (6. Juni 2009, 13:26)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

27

Samstag, 6. Juni 2009, 11:26

The Argus As8 engine

Now, let's try to find out everything we can about the Argus As8 engine. Is it one or several engines, does it have 80 hp or 120 hp? Two preliminary references give contradictory figures:

Wikipedia states that the Argus As8 was produced in the 1930s and delivered 80kW (110hp) at 2,100 rpm. (Note that 2,100 is a typical max rpm setting).

Das Virtuelle Luftfahrtmuseum states that the Argus As8 was produced originally from 1929 and delivered 79-80 hp cruise power and 94-95 hp max power.

We now have three (!) ratings for the same engine, plus the extra fourth rating of 120 hp from the tables above. What to do?

At the present stage I'll go with the 70 kW (ca 93 hp) rating of the "Solo flights..." datasheet, since that tallies with the Virtual Aircraft Museum figure of max 94-95 hp. I'll disregard the Wikipedia figure of 80 kW (110 hp), and the earlier loose figures of 80 hp (mix-up by authors?). I'll also disregard the 120 hp figure for the time being.

Conclusion so far: 80hp (60kW) cruise, and 93hp (70kW) max power, for Elly's four-cylinder inline Argus As8.

Two photos of the Argus As8 are attached. Source: Wikipedia commons

Note particularly how well suited the Argus As8 engine is for paper modeling, with its rather square or rectangular shapes...
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • Argus_As_8_1.jpg
  • Argus_As_8_2.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 2 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (6. Juni 2009, 11:31)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

28

Samstag, 6. Juni 2009, 13:28

A note on this thread

As you will notice, the last several posts have been edited numerous times. I am grateful for that opportunity (not common to all forums), since it enables me, for one, to go back and update information which has come to light at a later point.

This thread for me is a way of keeping, while at the same time sharing, information I'd like to systematize anyway.

At this point, I think there are three distinct, but related, design challenges emerging:

• A good model of Koenig-Warthausen's L20
• The early L25 with a radial Salmson 40hp engine (as flown by Elly Beinhorn on her 1931 Africa flight, for example).
• The L26a V with 70kW Argus As8 engine, as flown by Elly Beinhorn on her round-the-world flight 1931-32.

And the challenge is open to anyone who feels the urge. The basic material has been collected...

I attach the four best drawings, in addition to the one in the post above, that I have found:

• The first is Hans Klemm's original drawing (I think) for the L20. It's very nice to have, and it gives the basic measurements, but not much more than that. Source.
• The second is an early, good, Klemm drawing (origin unknown). It would be useful, I believe, for designing the L20. Source.
• The third & fourth drawings are of the L25, and of Hungarian origin. Source 1. Source 2.
• The fifth drawing is the very good one by H.-J. Fisher already published. Source.
• The sixth, and last, drawing is a new find (although I should have found it before; the reason I haven't is that I have been looking mainly at L20 drawings so far). It is an original Klemm drawing for the L25d VII, with all necessary measurements. Source (and I'll have to get back to this one!).

The four last drawings should be ample for the L25 type. The L26 Argus-powered version has to be inferred from them. I hope to get back with further material from the last source on the radial engine L25 version.

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • L20-dwg L.gif
  • L20-dwg a.gif
  • klemm25.jpg
  • KlemmL25d.jpg
  • Klemm-KL-25E-VIIR.jpg
  • Kl 25 dVII.gif
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 10 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (6. Juni 2009, 23:57)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

29

Samstag, 6. Juni 2009, 22:19

Intermission: A German flying acrobat on a Klemm - but which type?

Now for a short intermission from the technical stuff. Let me introduce you to the German flying acrobat Fritz Schindler, killed while trying to move from one aicraft to another during one of his many shows in 1930, and tragically taking the three other people flying with him in the two planes into their death.

But let's meet Fritz Schindler in his hedays in the late 1920s, first together with his partner and pilot Hedy Schumann in 1928 (photo 1), and then on his own in one of his Klemm aircraft (photo 2) the same year.

Now, the task for you - yes, at this point there is a task; I want to check that we are all on the same page so to speak - is to determine what particular model of the Klemm he is performing his acrobatics from at this point of time. Clearly, the one seen in the air-to-air photos (3-6), is not the same aircraft as in photo 2, but I would think the type very probably is the same.

By now you should be well equipped to take on this simple task. Plus remarking on what is so very special with these acrobatics, or rather the pre-conditions for them? You may also want to elaborate a bit on your reasoning for the answers you arrive at. What features did you use to determine the type? Could you determine the type from photo 2 alone - if so, how; and if not, why not?

The source for these wonderful photos (no 3 is particularly breath-taking, don't you think?) is "Die Tragik von Fritz Schindler". (And no, you won't get any direct help from going to the source, although you may well wish to do so for the sheer pleasure of seeing more of these photos...)

Leif

PS. Is "Münchner Illustrirte" really spelt this way??? Not according to what I learned at school, and not according to the Civil Aircraft Register for Germany...
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • schindler_flugtag_boblingen_1928_1a.jpg
  • schindler_flugtag_boblingen_1928_2a.jpg
  • schindler_1a.jpg
  • schindler_flugtag_braunschweig_19-06-1927a.jpg
  • schindler_flugplatz_boblingen_06-1927_02a.jpg
  • schindler_flugplatz_boblingen_06-1927_03a.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 21 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (8. Juni 2009, 18:39)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

30

Montag, 8. Juni 2009, 12:58

Source for replica build!

Quick answer to the quiz above: The type Fritz Schindler is performing his acrobatics from is of course the early L20, same as Koenig-Warthausen flew around the world in. The most remarkable fact in my eyes is that both performed their feats with an engine rated at just 20hp.

After having stared at different types of Klemm L20-26 I am no longer sure of anything but that the L20 had sharp edges along the fuselage top side, and that the sides were fabric-covered. So I think you could safely deduce that photo 2 in the previous post is an L20, although you could of course not be 100 percent sure of what engine powered it. A safe bet would be the 20hp Daimler, since almost all L20s were powered by that.

I think all later versions had plywood-covered fuselages, and rounded upper edges.

What I can't quite figure yet, however, is what distinguished an L26 from an L25. Was it just the change of engine to the Argus As8?

Meanwhile I am happy to report that I am now in contact with Herbert Kersten, one of the German enthusiasts who are building a L20 replica. He has kindly sent me the address to the blog where he reports progress of the build: Herbies Klemm L20 Blog.

There you can see a wonderful photo (same as already published in lower resolution) of how the replica looks today. I attach the high-resolution photo. Beautiful isn't it?

At the blog you can also read about the painstaking and slow work undertaken by the Stuttgart enthusiasts. Most interesting! I attach another photo from Herbie's blog of how the replica looked in 2006.

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • L20 Herbie Messe.jpg
  • kl20Rumpf.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 6 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (8. Juni 2009, 18:19)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

31

Montag, 8. Juni 2009, 18:11

Lists of Klemm aircraft

Here's a bit of basic research for you to chew on:

At the Golden Years of Aviation site you can read online, and download as txt-files, the national registrations for many countries for the years up to ca 1940.

I did that for Germany, and from those huge files extracted "by hand" all Klemm aircrafts. From that list I extracted all Daimler/Klemm L20 - L28 models, and finally separated them into single lists for each type to get the size down to something that could be shared here.

I attach the result. There are four nicely formatted files, in chronological order:

Klemm L20-L21: The first type (originally Daimler) L20, plus 2 L21s. 67 entries.

Klemm L25: The most numerous type. 682 entries.

Klemm L26: The second most numerous type. 242 entries.

Klemm L27-L28: Special types. Three L27, one L28, and one Alpha-type.

A few notes on the special types (Source SOS-Eisberg):

L 21: In 1925 two L 21’s were built, especially for the "Deutschen Rundflug - BZ Flug", the predecessor of the "Deutschlandflug". Klemm wanted to take part in the race with the L 20, but rules did not allow the aircraft to have less than 40 Hp. Within a few weeks Hanns modified the design of the L20 into a parasol winged aircraft on which he fitted two 20 Hp engines. Although the rear fuselage was taken from the L 20, the wings were shortened, and in the end it became a remarkably different airplane. The concept proved to be very good, since this first twin-engine light aircraft (D 623) in the world won the race!

Alpha: An L25 with different wing and steel-tube fuselage covered with linen.

L26: [A note on the numbers: I found 242 registered aircraft, which differs from what the source SOS-Eisberg writes: "Approximately 50 have been built between 1930 and 1936." If I count the aircraft registered until 1935 with D-numbers, I find 168 in my list, and there may be more in the D-alpha-numeric list (which doesn't provide registration dates). However, I still don't know how to identify a L26 compared to a L25 from a photo...]

L 27: The L27 was a further development of the L 26. All L 27’s were 3-seaters, except for the FL 27. The latter was a single-seat "freight" aircraft: instead of a front cockpit, a small hold was located at that position. These were all "einzelmusters" (one-of-a-kind models): all 8 that were built were different from each other, mainly by its engines. [Note: I could only find 3 of the L27 type in the register.]

L28: Only one built - this was an open two-seater with a steel-tube fuselage, powered by a 150 Hp Siemens Radial Engine, fitted with a NACA-hood. The aircraft with registration D-2495 was built in 1933, and crashed in 1934. [In addition to these facts from SOS-Eisberg I could add that it was built as a competition aircraft for German woman pilot Liesel Bach.]

Leif

PS. There are no guarantees that I haven't lost or misplaced an aircraft while editing the lists. I could only do my best, and there were a lot of aircraft in those registers!
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Dateien angehängt:
  • Klemm L20-L21.doc (51,2 kB - 872 mal heruntergeladen - zuletzt: 11. November 2017, 23:01)
  • Klemm L25.doc (368,64 kB - 2 010 mal heruntergeladen - zuletzt: 11. November 2017, 23:02)
  • Klemm L26.doc (143,36 kB - 581 mal heruntergeladen - zuletzt: 13. November 2017, 05:06)
  • Klemm L27-L28.doc (13,31 kB - 190 mal heruntergeladen - zuletzt: 11. November 2017, 23:04)
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 11 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (8. Juni 2009, 23:35)


  • »morewings« ist männlich

Beiträge: 757

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Juni 2004

  • Nachricht senden

32

Montag, 8. Juni 2009, 18:59

Hallo Leif,

Daimler L 21 (Klemm war Konstrukteur bei Daimler) findet man im Flight magazine als Teilnehmer des Deutschlandfluges von 1925.
Geflogen wurde die L 21 von Bruno Loerzer, berühmter Führer derJagdstaffel 26 und später sogar Geschwaderführer.
Hier sind Bilder der Klemm L 21 hierund hier.
Sieht überhaupt nicht nach Klemm aus.
Und hier

Loerzer hatte die Startnummer 67: Liste der Teilnehmer
Am Wettbewerb beteiligten sich auch 2 Daimler (Klemm) L 20. Siehe Liste der Teilnehmer.

Grüße
Roman
LG Roman

  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

33

Montag, 8. Juni 2009, 20:15

L21, L27, L28 photos

Thanks again, Roman!

It is very good to know that you are watching, and following up by searching the Flight Magazine archives. You find so much of value!

How about some photos of those rare Klemm types before we proceed? Here goes:

L21: The 1925 competition aircraft, built as a parasol twin engine, just because the rules didn't allow engines below 40 hp... And it won the whole contest. All original photos are of rather poor quality. Roman's Flight Magazine photos seem to be the only ones. I attach one of them (taken from a secondary source, SOS-Eisberg.

The best I can do in addition to that is an electric propulsion RC-model, built by a talented German modeller. See it on three sites: 1, 2, 3. I attach one photo of it (from source 2).

Note that the engines are not modelled at all (yet...?), but otherwise it is a beautiful model, and the photos are quite useful to get an idea of what it looked like. A light-weight model (partly paper-built?) could possibly be made for those cheap twin-engine toy RC-planes, if you rip out their guts and place the hardware in such a model. Note how well suited this aircraft is for modelling in paper - no compound curves, just sections bent straight, particularly the nose which usually is a headache in paper.

L27: I have found only one photo of it, which I attach. Source. I really couldn't distinguish this from an L26, or even an L25, from this photo alone. But it certainly looks "sturdier" overall and "later", more advanced. It is a three-seater, let's remember.

Note that the landing gear is still bungee-sprung, in spite of the modern (although not low-pressure, I don't think) wheels. I am slowly realizing that bungee-springs cannot be used as a criterion for an "early" model, since this is a very late model.

Judging by the source, this is a British aircraft. The caption says "Aerial photographer E W Bicknell, a Simmons Aerofilms' photographer, poses by a Klemm L27, 22 March 1934". Note the hatch at the bottom of the aircraft, just aft of the enginge cowling. This could be an opening for the aerial photography camera.

The British register carries four Klemm L27. Together with the three in the German register, this will make up for seven of the eight L27s allegedly produced.

The aircraft in the photo must be G-ABOP, Klemm L27 a VIII, Aerofilms Ltd/Heston. The "VIII" designation points to an engine other than those in the list in a previous post. I don't think it is an Argusor Hirth, though, since they both had the air intake on the right, not the left side. Perhaps a British Cirrus Major or Gipsy Major? That would certainly make sense for a British-registered Klemm.

Note (edited in later): Perhaps the "VIII" designation should be read as "V" and "III"? In that case it would denote a three-seater (goes for all L27s) plus a Blackburn Cirrus Minor engine, according to the fact sheet above.

L28: Liesel Bach's one-off competition plane. Only one, rather low-quality, photo found (attached at the bottom). Source. Read more about Liesel Bach at the same source.

I don't think this aircraft belongs in the series we are studying here. The nearest descendant to the L20-25-26-27 series is more appropriately the KL35 two-seat, low-wing trainer.

But this is well outside our scope here, as are the two more specialized competition types illustrated. It is interesting, though, what a difference the ten years 1925-1934 made in the evolution of a single aircraft type: From a basically too light aircraft in 1925, to the racing thoroughbred in 1934.

I'll try to get back to the golden years of that period, 1928 to 1932, presently.

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • L-21 WHK-013.jpg
  • L21-modell.jpg
  • Klemm L27-1.jpg
  • Klemm L28-Bach_1.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 31 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (9. Juni 2009, 09:55)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

34

Dienstag, 9. Juni 2009, 09:02

The early L25 a & b with radial engine

Let's move back in time, to the L20 of 1928 and Hanns Klemm's wish to make an aircraft that would outrun the bicycles below even in a headwind. The solution was the French nine-cylinder radial engine Salmson 9AD (or AD9), rated at ca 40 hp, double the power of the 20hp Daimler engine of the L20.

I attach two photos, one from the Smithsonian, where you can also read a little bit about the engine, and one mounted on the D-EFTE shown before (source: Wikipedia).

The last, high-resolution, photo in particular should be useful for modelling purposes. Note that the propeller is rotating counter-clockwise as seen from the pilot. This is different from all other engines I have seen mounted on Klemm L20-L27.

At the excellent modelling source MeineFlieger.de there are two early drawings of the Klemm L25 with a Salmson engine, one of them an original Klemm drawing. I attach them below side by side, because they illustrate the difference between a L25a and a L25b so well - note the different shapes of the fin.
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • Salmson 9AD.jpg
  • Salmson AD9.jpg
  • KL 25 Ia.gif
  • KL-25-Ib.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 3 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (9. Juni 2009, 09:47)


  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

35

Dienstag, 9. Juni 2009, 09:30

Instrument panels & the "VL" three-seater types

For archival purposes, I attach the four illustrations of typical L25 instrument panels found at the MeineFlieger.de site.

Note that they are all from the rear seat. Notice also that they have an artificial horizon at the center - pretty advanced for such a comparatively early light aircraft. Note (edited in much later): That is not an artifical horizon but the compass! See this post below. There were no blind flying instruments at all in the Klemm, not even a turn gyro.

There is an informative specification sheet at the same site (attached last). The list explains the tubes along the fuselage side of Elly Beinhorn's L26 - they are oil-cooling tubes, particular to the Argus engine.

An interesting point here is that L26 is the only versions specified as dual control. What about all L25s we see in photos, which were obviously dual-control and used as trainers?

And they really are L25s, I've checked against the registration lists. Perhaps the late L25s (d, e) were dual control, but not the early ones? Questions abound...

The VL25 and VL26 types mentioned are the three-seaters. They had a typically larger, more rectangular, front cockpit hatch, allowing two people to sit side-by-side. I attach a photo of one such type.

The SOS-Eisberg has it down as "a well-filled L20", which I think is plain wrong. I understand it as a Hirth-powered, three-seat VL25 or VL26. And a fairly late version at that, c.f. the ballon-wheels. Very pretty picture, isn't it?

Consulting my own lists (see this post), this Hansa Flugdienst aircraft could be one of the four following:

D-EDMA Klemm VL25 c VII R
D-EGER Klemm VL26 a V (D-2249 first reg. 00.04.32 as a L25 VIIc)
D-EJUQ Klemm VL25 c VII R (D-2590 first reg. 00.08.33 as a L25 VIIc)
D-EKUS Klemm VL26 c VII R (D-2348 first reg 00.11.32 as a VL26 c VII R)

How about using the ballon wheels as an indicator that it is a late version, and if so the D-EKUS VL26c VIIR or the D-EDMA VL25c, both with Hirth 80hp engines?

The D-EKUS is the only one of the originally D-numeric registered Hansa Luftdienst aircrafts, also originally registered as "VL"-types. For the D-EDMA, there is no information about the time of original registration, indicating that it is a late aircraft; post-1934, which is when the alpha-numeric registrations started.

One of those two would be my guess. But, again, how to distinguish a L25 from a L26 from just a photo? I still don't know.

Leif
»Leif Ohlsson« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • instumentenbretthinten.jpg
  • instumentenbretthinten2.jpg
  • instumentenbretthinten3.jpg
  • instumentenbretthinten4.jpg
  • lieferumpfang.jpg
  • WHK-012 L-25.jpg
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 21 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (10. Juni 2009, 23:33)


Michael Urban

Erleuchteter

Beiträge: 3 324

Registrierungsdatum: 10. Oktober 2005

  • Nachricht senden

36

Dienstag, 9. Juni 2009, 15:32

Leif,

Zitat

Original von Leif Ohlsson
PS. Is "Münchner Illustrirte" really spelt this way??? Not according to what I learned at school, and not according to the Civil Aircraft Register for Germany...


At that time - yes. Nowadays, one would spell "Münchner Illustrierte".

Zitat

Original von Leif Ohlsson
But, again, how to distinguish a L25 from a L26 from just a photo? I still don't know.


I would say - you can't. With the dimensions for the L25 varying so much (i.e. wingspan somewhere between 10 and 13m, depending on the engine), I don't think you can distinguish the model from a photo. The L26 was "slightly larger" - about 20cm in length and 15cm in height. But compared to which L25 variant?

As far as I know the L26 was redesigned to carry more powerful engines - so probably the differences were mainly in the internal structure.

Michael

  • »Leif Ohlsson« ist der Autor dieses Themas

Beiträge: 1 547

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Dezember 2004

Beruf: Retired

  • Nachricht senden

37

Dienstag, 9. Juni 2009, 17:30

Thanks Michael - didn't know that about the spelling...

As for the varying span of the L25, could you tell me a little bit more about that?

From the SOS-Eisberg Klemm history I did learn that the L26f had shorter span, but I haven't seen anything more about varying span of different L25 versions.

Wikipedia says about the L25: "Depending on the model, the aircraft's weight was 620 to 720 kilograms, and it had a 10.5 m to 13 m wingspan". But then again, Wikipedia does not have an entry for the L26, so perhaps there is a bit of mix-up?

It would be good to get this point clarified. Thanks for taking the trouble.

The Luftfahrt-Archiv Hafner does have sets of original manuals for both Klemm aircfraft, and various engines, among them the Salmson. Something to dream about...

- L.
Dankbar für die Gelegenheit auf Englisch schreiben zu dürfen, kann aber Antworten problemlos auf Deutsch lesen.

Dieser Beitrag wurde bereits 8 mal editiert, zuletzt von »Leif Ohlsson« (9. Juni 2009, 17:38)


  • »morewings« ist männlich

Beiträge: 757

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Juni 2004

  • Nachricht senden

38

Dienstag, 9. Juni 2009, 18:14

Hallo Leif,

nein, nein, nein. Als ich das letzte mal wissen wollte, wie hat ein besonderes Flugzeug wirklich ausgesehen, damals der Fokker Dreidecker im Einsatz, hat mich das etwa 7 Jahre meiner Freizeit gekostet.
Gut, ich weiß es jetzt ziemlich genau!

Zur Zeit bin ich hinter einem anderen Fluzeug her.
DH 60 Moth, D- 1651, geflogen von Ernst Udet. Ein Bild davon hast du oben schon gezeigt. Hinter der Klemm von Elly Beinhorn steht die U12a Flamingo von Udet, und dahinter seine DH 60 Moth.
Bilder von www.flugzeugforum.de, Link habe ich vorher schon eingefügt.
Unten noch ein anderes Bild davon.

Meine Infos über die Klemm Flugzeuge finde ich dabei nebenher.
Trotzdem schaue ich natürlich sofort, wenn du wieder neue Informationen anfügst.

Grüße,
Roman
»morewings« hat folgendes Bild angehängt:
  • Udet.jpg
LG Roman

  • »morewings« ist männlich

Beiträge: 757

Registrierungsdatum: 21. Juni 2004

  • Nachricht senden

39

Dienstag, 9. Juni 2009, 18:30

Klemm L25

Ein Modell einer Klemm L 25 habe ich auch noch.
Es wurde im Heft Flugzeug Kartonmodellbau veröffentlicht. Im Maßstab 1:50.
»morewings« hat folgende Bilder angehängt:
  • R-00129_0.jpg
  • R-00129_1_large.jpg
  • R-00129_2_large.jpg
  • R-00129_3_large.jpg
LG Roman

Michael Urban

Erleuchteter

Beiträge: 3 324

Registrierungsdatum: 10. Oktober 2005

  • Nachricht senden

40

Dienstag, 9. Juni 2009, 19:27

Leif,

I had my info on the varying wingspan from a site that apparently copied the Wikipedia description. So maybe it varied, maybe it didn't.

But I think back in the old days, plane construction wasn't set in stone - so there may have been variations based on wishes of the buyer.

But what do I know - I only try to look wise - but sometimes gray hair isn't enough ;)

Michael

Social Bookmarks